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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:47 pm 
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What is it that in initiates emotional response, outside stimilus surely?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:45 pm 
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I have got lost in a welter of words :roll:


Do we all agree that:

Outside stimulus causes emotional response.

This results in deliberate and varied reactions.

Reactions influenced by DNA traits plus culture and upbringing.

:?:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:51 pm 
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Having just posted as above it suddenly seemed sad that this all began with a discussion on love. Love really does not deserve to be subject to this kind of clinical analysis.

Takes away some of the magic really, doesn't it?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Tommy GS wrote:
All feelings originate outside the physical embodiment.
All emotions originate within the physical embodiment.

Feelings are as a result of an external stimulus.
Emotions are those feelings processed and integrated with our very selves.

Feelings feed our emotions. We feel something and we are moved. (Movement. Motion. Emotion.) Emotion has to do with our brains, perception, environment, &c.

But our emotions do not feed our feelings.

Another question: in your opinion: is it possible to be angry at someone you love? If so, isn't that contradictory?


Tommy,
You've been reading the following, I assume, since what you wrote is written verbatim here:
http://lipgravy.com/whitefeatherlibrary ... lings.html

Quote:
All feelings originate outside the physical embodiment.
All emotions originate within the physical embodiment.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:51 pm 
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gumtree wrote:
I have got lost in a welter of words :roll:


Do we all agree that:

Outside stimulus causes emotional response.

This results in deliberate and varied reactions.

Reactions influenced by DNA traits plus culture and upbringing.

:?:


Right. After wading through all of the psychobabble and bullpucky, that's pretty much what it boils down to. :P

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:56 pm 
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[quote="Anajo
Right. After wading through all of the psychobabble and bullpucky, that's pretty much what it boils down to. :P[/quote]


:) :) That's a relief - bit disturbed by poor old White Feather, sorry he used up 8 years worrying about two words.

John Dryden said of John Donne:

"He affects the metaphysics...........and perplexes the minds of the fair sex with nice speculations of philosophy, when he should engage their hearts, and entertain them with the softnesses of love. .........................."

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:10 am 
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gumtree wrote:
bit disturbed by poor old White Feather, sorry he used up 8 years worrying about two words.

:lol:

I took an upper-level English course while attending university back in the days. I discovered that the first half of the semester would be devoted to John Donne. Our first assignment was to read this poem.

http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/flea.php

The professor explained that within the flea is the trinity because there were three lives in one flea. Somehow the flea also represents his desire to convince the girl to have premarital sex. And this is supposed to be a love poem.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Thank you, Anajo, I am now enlightened :lol: :lol: The painting deserved a more attractive title!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Whew.

Was out of town.

Ok -

Yes, Anajo, that must have been my source.

DSW - I think that is where psychology comes into play. Our psyche, our chemistry, our environment, our genes, and the rest of our entire complex. Feeling is food. Emotion is our digestive system.

Oh... after reading GT's response, that is pretty much it. I don't think she and I said anything contradictory. Thumbs up!

gumtree wrote:
Having just posted as above it suddenly seemed sad that this all began with a discussion on love. Love really does not deserve to be subject to this kind of clinical analysis.

Takes away some of the magic really, doesn't it?

What do you mean?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Also - no one answered my question.

In your opinion: is it possible to be angry at someone you love? If so, isn't that contradictory?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:49 am 
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Tommy GS wrote:


gumtree wrote:
Having just posted as above it suddenly seemed sad that this all began with a discussion on love. Love really does not deserve to be subject to this kind of clinical analysis.

Takes away some of the magic really, doesn't it?

What do you mean?



Back to you, Tommy:

Quote:-

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.
4Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Love never faileth........................now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.


1 Corinthians 13

Do you really want to reduce that to emotions, stimuli, reactions, DNA etc??

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:30 pm 
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Ah, but that is my question to you.

I am trying to understand what YOUR concept of love is. I think I did a pretty good job, earlier in this thread, clarifying your understanding. To that, you replied, "Absolutely completely spot on correct." Now, your disappointment in its lack-of-magic alludes to some ambiguity.

Do you believe that love is subject to the scientific method? If it is, is that disappointing to you? Why would you have any inclination to believe - or desire - that love is something other than emotions, stimuli, reactions, DNA, and so on?

Are you citing 1 Cor 13 because I believe in it; or do you, yourself, rest upon Paul's definition?

Lastly, no one has answered my question: in your opinion: is it possible to be angry at someone you love (if love is an emotion, or a feeling)? If so, isn't that contradictory?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:19 am 
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I am really determined to try and keep this brief as once more we seem to be playing with words and not progressing.

My only objective in this and the previous discussion was to convince you that love itself or in fact any "emotional" response is not "an act of will".

When you clarified YOUR understanding of what I had written, to me that indicated that you understood why I do not consider love an act of will.

Love to me is one of the few good things about the human race. It can be experienced in a multitude of good ways, resulting in caring, sharing, comfort, kindness and genuine charity to name a few and I am not going to expand and get lost again with definitions.

Whilst personally am definitely NOT an admirer of St Paul, I do believe that particular passage of the Bible is beautiful and a guide to try and live up to and expresses perfectly what genuine love should encompass.

If you try to reduce to some uniform analysis the absolute myriads of degrees of human emotions, which in turn are multiplied by differences in each and every unique personal character you completely dehumanise something special and sometimes admirable about humanity.

And, I have no more to say in this respect ( for a change!) :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:23 am 
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Splendid. All of this is noted. I have questions.

Do you consider adultery to be something uncharacteristic of love? Am I indicating that I love my wife when I have sex with another woman? Can adultery and love be complementary if I love my mistress? Do you consider fidelity to my wife to be the higher principle, in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health? Doesn't this suggest commitment? Doesn't commitment discount feelings and emotions? What about preserving life, as opposed to murdering? Or being honest, as opposed to lying? Or charity, as opposed to apathy? Are these characteristic of love? Do these suggest feelings to you? Look at Paul...

Patience is an act of the will.
Kindness is an act of the will.
Humility is an act of the will.
Respect is an act of the will.
Selflessness is an act of the will.
Forgiving and forgetting is an act of the will.
Bearing, believing, hoping, and enduring all require human choice.

Even what you suggested love should be encompassed choices that people make: caring, sharing, comfort, kindness and genuine charity. And, while all of these are choices, they are also producers of good, loving feelings and emotions too.

So, is love without feeling and emotion? Absolutely not. That is nonsense. Complete nonsense. Is love feeling and emotion ONLY? Absolutely not. That is nonsense. Complete nonsense.

Hatred and selfishness are acts of the will. Abuse, greed, and so on. Why should it be that its opposite, love, is not an act of the will?

If I say, "I love you", how would you ever know that I do, in fact, love you? By action, yes? My wife left me for another man. I guess she didn't love me afterall. LOVE IS A VERB. While my wife leaving me for another man indicates that she no longer has feelings (love, in this case, is a noun), she freely chooses to NOT love me (love, in this case, is a verb.)

You might say, "The emotional love PRODUCES the action. Affection produces hugs and kisses. Eroticism produces sexual intimacy. Self-gift produces extreme measures to protect and provide and care for those for whom our hearts burn. (Dying on a cross, for example.) It is the FEELING which LEADS to the act of the will."

And, yes, indeed, this is true. But the act of the will - that is, our free response - is the deeper, true love. We show our noun-love by verb-loving. But verb-loving is not contingent upon noun-love. They can mix well, like Jack and Coke. But, Jack is Jack and Coke is Coke and neither one of them particularly needs the other.

What you are suggesting (re: disappointment in the lack-of-magic) can lead to 1) decisions and choices, or it can lead to 2) immaterialism. You would believe that love has nothing to do with both of these, correct?

See?

Finally, no one has answered my question: in your opinion: can you be angry at someone you love, if love is emotional and feeling? If you can be, isn't that contradictory?

Could it be that you are angry at someone BECAUSE you love them?

We don't have to like everyone, but we have to love everyone. Our feelings and emotions come and go. We feel different things for different people at different times. Should I marry the woman that I have feelings for? When I stop having feelings for her, does that mean I don't love her anymore?

Love (v.) - seeking the other's good absolutely without thought to self. Selfless. Forgetful of the self. Gift of self. Self-giving. This, by definition and by nature, does not entail good feelings and good emotions by necessity; and in fact, it even suggests that it could lead to bad feelings and bad emotions.

Unrequited love isn't, "I have feelings for her, but she doesn't have feelings for me." Unrequited love is, "I give her everything I got, but she doesn't give me anything back." Love is a verb.



Needed to make a couple edits, for clarity. Plus, I just felt like there was more I could say. :) Those additions probably made everything less clear. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:47 am 
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If love is just a good feeling... if it just a passive emotion that we cannot control, then what is there for us to bear and endure?

arrow's original thread was about commitment. He cannot see, from what I understood, a relationship moving forward without commitment. Commitment is a choice, despite bad feelings (bad feelings of non-love.)

Commitment suggests times where non-love feelings will be present. Therefore, because commitment aims at the higher good, non-love feelings DO NOT EQUAL not-loving. And in fact, it is the commitment that gives love its clearer definition as a choice. A decision. An act of the will.


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