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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 6:20 am 
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Interesting that you should choose to study Plato or Aristotle, Anajo.


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 6:48 am 
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By the way arrow, in regards to practicality: the Bible contains the most practical sentence ever uttered in the history of the world: "What does it profit the man, that he gain the riches of the world, but he lose his own self?"

Christ was the best economist of all time.


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 3:43 pm 
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Tommy GS wrote:
By the way arrow, in regards to practicality: the Bible contains the most practical sentence ever uttered in the history of the world: "What does it profit the man, that he gain the riches of the world, but he lose his own self?"

Christ was the best economist of all time.


i don't question that wisdom. As i said, i consider myself selective skeptic. Tell me, where in the Bible does it say that purgatory exist? And what is the practicality of calling the pope a holy father when Jesus says that you only have one Holy Father who is in heaven?

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 4:38 pm 
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arrow, good friend, your questions have answers. Those who seek shall find, indeed. (Socrates was a seeker - I would be surprised if Socrates is not in heaven!)

Forgive me for being cynical, but I wonder if, perhaps, the questions you really seek actually have to do with Biblical exegesis; or if they go deeper. (?) That is to say, would it really suffice for you if I answered your questions directly? Purgatory? And why Catholic Christians call the Pope the "Holy Father"?


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 2:50 am 
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Am listening , go ahead. And please be biblically fundamental in your answers.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 6:03 am 
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If it pleases you.




Even though the word 'purgatory' is not directly used in Scripture, we know that it exists because it is described. All fundamentalist Protestants admit that the Trinity exists, and yet that word is never used. Then why do they believe in a Triune God? Because He is described - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. And so goes for purgatory.

The first reference we have in Scripture about purgatory is in 2 Maccabees 12:46, "Thus, he made atonement for the dead, they they might be freed from sin." People in heaven don't need prayers. Nor do people in hell. Thus, it naturally follows that there must some... "state" or "place" or whatever you'd like to call it... that a person goes to if their sin is not grave and their soul is not perfected.

Christ Jesus describes this place in Mt 5:26 when he says, "Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."

Rev 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, yet 1 Jn 5:16 tells us that there is some sin that does not lead to death. Inferring that the place of purification must exist.



And - I will talk about "Call no man Father" later, but I am late for breakfast with my buddy. I hope this helps. Cheers.


Last edited by Tommy GS on Sat May 14, 2011 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 6:36 am 
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thanks for the effort tom . i may not be convinced but at least you did your best explaining. i just think that if purgatory is real, then there is no more sin to be considered and condemned because in the end, everyone will go to heaven because of that purification stage.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 7:50 am 
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Ah, thus, my prior suspicion, arrow, that a direct answer would not please you.

And even so, your objection to my explanation is dealt with: it is not true that if purgatory exists, then there is no more sin to be condemned, because we are told that there is sin that is not grave, or deadly. So, if a person dies with a non-deadly sin on their soul, they won't go to hell. Yet, nothing unclean, in the least, can enter heaven. Therefore, the place of purification is necessary. That is a perfect, logical syllogism.

Do you choose to believe that all people go to heaven? If all people go to heaven, then Jesus was a fool.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 3:26 pm 
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Consider this. If the bible speaks so clearly of heaven and hell, why is purgatory not mentioned in the same way? Contrary to what has been described as you said, there is no elaboration of it unlike that of heaven in revelation or hell which is described as ocean of fire.

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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:33 am 
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arrow wrote:
Consider this. If the bible speaks so clearly of heaven and hell, why is purgatory not mentioned in the same way? Contrary to what has been described as you said, there is no elaboration of it unlike that of heaven in revelation or hell which is described as ocean of fire.



Followed this and i say enough. Arrow will never be satisfied with any of your answers, no matter how obviously sincere these may be to his query. Him and only him knows what answer satisfies him.


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 1:15 pm 
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fullmom wrote:
Followed this and i say enough. Arrow will never be satisfied with any of your answers, no matter how obviously sincere these may be to his query. Him and only him knows what answer satisfies him.

Where's the fun in that? :mrgreen: I can't speak for anyone else, but I am personally enjoying this discussion. I am seeking the truth, and arrow is seeking the truth. If he says to me, "Quite frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" then I will shake his hand, give him a nod, and say, "Maybe some other day." Perhaps he is not satisfied with my answers - it is according to his conscience and free will what he chooses to acknowledge and reject. But there are few things I like more than questions. All questions. And arrow is good at asking them.

In any case, madame, you may get what you want because the answer I intend on giving him is, "I don't know. That is a good question."



arrow, when I consider your position, I must repeat myself from a previous post:
Tommy GS wrote:
Forgive me for being cynical, but I wonder if, perhaps, the questions you really seek actually have to do with Biblical exegesis; or if they go deeper. (?) That is to say, would it really suffice for you if I answered your questions directly? Purgatory? And why Catholic Christians call the Pope the "Holy Father"?
I am still waiting for an answer to THAT question.


I also thought: shouldn't skeptics be more familiar with God's modus operandi than theists or atheists? What is the answer that grinds most people? "It's a mystery." A question with the premise, "If the Bible addresses heaven and hell, then why not...." might as well include an address on the Problem of Pain, the Existence of God, Faith and Reason, and all other issues. Pascal wrote that God gives just enough light, that if we want him, we'll find him. And if we don't want him, then we won't.

I also thought: arrow didn't even address my arguments for purgatory.



And I'm still considering! :D


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 4:32 pm 
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Red hot game of tennis, guys, keep it going - :D

Arrow you've finally done more than stir the pot and leave us all to follow up! Yaaay, you're giving Tommy a good run for his money please don't stop :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 5:43 pm 
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I can't stop grinning.


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 8:10 pm 
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Tom your arguments on purgatory and purification satisfy the sinner , which we all are. If God and his grace is more than enough, why should there still be a need for purgatory? Jesus, according to bible, forgave sins in his lifetime and it was enough , so are you telling me now that his forgiveness is insufficient that we all still need purification thru purgatory?

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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 8:41 pm 
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While Christ forgives those who ask for his forgiveness, he himself informs us that we will "pay every penny." I am left to believe that Justice must be satisfied.

Thus, while our sins are forgiven, we must undergo temporal punishment. There are two forms of temporal punishment, due to sin: the eternal punishment of hell, due to unforgiven mortal sins, and temporal punishment, lasting only for a time, due to venial sins and also to mortal sins after they have been forgiven.

If anyone does not abide in me, he shall be cast outside as the branch and wither; and they shall gather them up and cast them into the fire, and they shall burn. (John 15:6)

It is a scary sentence, but he does not lie.

The confession of sins takes away eternal punishment, but does not take away temporal punishment. We pay this debt, either in this life or in purgatory. Purgatory is mercy and justice. Both are attributes of God.


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