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 Post subject: Dilemma
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:37 pm 
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DedeKorkut
DedeKorkut

Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:36 am
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Location: Turan
You all probably have heard of news from North Africa. As our dear libra was one of those who directly were involved in, we celebrated revolution of Egyptians.

Tunusia, Libya and many other Arabian states had or already having such events.

Despite my great approval, and belief that Egyptian movement will demonstrate that people can destroy their chains and dethrone tyrants, there's a qualm arising in my mind: Will U.S.A. or capitalist world -what we call "global capital" in Turkey- manipulate this honest and candid movements for their own benefit?

U.S.A. supported fundamentalists during cold war, and as the world politics changes its shape, tend to place a new and tolerating system in Middle East. This new type of ideology is called in Turkey as "Mild Islam" and the most renowned representative is R.T. Erdoğan, our prime minister (if i could i would "kill him a hundred and fifty ways"). As they remove their obsolote "minions", they create a new "smiling" system, which is approved by both regional people and the rest of the world.

What should we idiot "idealist"s think about the situation now? What matters if we sack Hitler and put global capital in his place?

Hitler was a cruel dictator and killed millions, but capitalism and western colonialism killed more, directly and indirectly. Hitler was appointed as the scapegoat, and masters of the globalism let people take their rightful vengeance upon him. And as they took their vengeance, they felt relieved, and nobody thought that there were many to be judged.

So, what's your opinion about the situation? Do you think that these movements are honest and pure "national" movements or some "evil" wants to manipulate people's rightful reactions?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:17 am 
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QuoteMaster
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Tony, your Dilemma is shared by everyone :cry:

It cannot be clear cut in either direction. Every uprising will have an element of what you call pure national and also another element which is using them for their own means.

The pure nationals will be genuinely protesting to get rid of an oppressive regime, and live decent lives with some say in who and how they will be governed. They may not choose an actual democratic process, but nevertheless expect a fair and reasonable life and not to live in unjustified fear.

The other element, also citizens of that country, who have been mixed in with the “pure” nationals will want to get rid of the regime and replace it with one which gives them the power and control. They will not care how it affects the ordinary citizen and they will ally themselves temporarily with any group, inside or abroad who will help their cause.

Overseas interests , whoever they may be and not necessarily the US, may use all these opportunities to support whoever will give them what they want to get out of it in the future – a resource, a religious foothold, a treaty of alliance, an overseas base, etc etc.

Unless the pure nationals are fairly unified in who they want to succeed the deposed government, and continue to support the new government and give them a chance to reform once elected, they are very open to this sort of manipulation.

Libra has stressed that in Egypt the Christian and Muslim demonstrators were united and that there is little religious intolerance in her country. This was very important to their success. That cannot be said of the other countries now protesting , so their unity is shaky and in some cases the religious differences are the cause of protest ie Bahrain. They cannot succeed against their tyrants or dictators, or if they do there will be prolonged unrest until the religions can live together.

I very much fear for the Libyan protestors as Gaddafi is utterly ruthless and has a mercenary army recruited with the sole object of keeping him in power. I am afraid this uprising will be put down without mercy.

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The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.
e e cummings (1894 - 1962)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:56 pm 
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QuoteMaster
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It's ironic to say that the chill is felt only after the fever is gone. Not to offend you Tony or Libra, but this makes me conclude that a rebellion is basically more of emotions than reasons in motion.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:04 am 
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QuoteMaster
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Arrow, I remember the People Power revolution of 1986, when President Marcos was removed from power.

I realise you were only a child, but your parents generation lived a long time under that regime. Do they feel life has improved as a result of that first peaceful demonstration of people power? Maybe not perfect, but have you removed possibility of dictatorship and have fair elections now?

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The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.
e e cummings (1894 - 1962)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:44 am 
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QuoteMaster
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GT, i would like to consider myself a child when that revolt began because it was a new experience for me even i was an activist myself during my college days. I cheered along and among my countrymen. I remember having been on the front line with them against the men of Marcos, and i recall vividly being in front row as Cory Aquino delivered her speeches on the stage during the campaign to oust Marcos.

Alas, i can only agree with most Filipinos today who think that the spirit of that people power has lost its momentum because of some subsequent leaders who took advantage, misused and abused the very authority and democracy it restored.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:04 am 
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DedeKorkut
DedeKorkut

Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:36 am
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Quote:
a rebellion is basically more of emotions than reasons in motion.


it is true. but, there's another true thing: a human life usually lasts 70 years and dead can not return. So, if people are dying, -i do not mean direct murder, people may die due to poverty, starvation, or people can be considered dead if they lack what a simple human needs- there's no time for a long period of consideration, you just jump into the field, due to fact that you forgot your old pistol in haste, you just keep fighting with nail and teeth.

This is why leaders of Turkish War of Independence experienced a great suffering due to political conflicts between them. During the war and early period of revolution, they were united towards the same enemy: English-French-Italian alliance and their Greek puppets (I do not blame the people, just government and those who willingly took their weapons to fight us and raped our daughters), they fought against them and for the first time in the 20th century, a weakened, almost colonialized -last five decades of Ottoman empire should be considered de jure independent, de facto colony) muslim country won their battle against the capitalism.

And when the "chill was felt", people remembered that they think different than the one who sits right next to them, and conflict began. Many of those were Ottoman Turkish army officiers who usually tend to be traditional, and altough they were sincere "freedom fighter"s, their toughts were really dangerous for my country. But Marchall (a title gained by himself after one of the most bloody battles of 20th century, Sakarya Battle which lasted 22 days and according to Greek sources between 60.000 and 100.000 Greeks and 10.000 Turks-not including civilians- died) Kemal Atatürk, who was honored as "Atatürk" (Father Turk) played well and established a real republic and his revolution still is a monument in the history of muslims, as it demonstrates that a muslim country can be both secular and muslim.

This is the characteristic of revolutions: People lose themselves in their feelings and this is the only thing that can lead a revolution to success, and when their job is done, leaders and intellectuals of that nation should draw the lines of revolution.

So, it's my sincere wish to see that God grants Egyptians an Ataturk, a leader who just values his nation, who accepts only science as guide, and inspires all members of his nation 73 years after his death.

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"God is a comedian, playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
Voltaire


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:00 am 
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I am from the USA but that does not mean i condone everything my government does and does not do. You might say " I don't give a **** about you and your lying sc*mb*g country." But hear me out because it is relevant to the conversation at hand. Many people forget about the American Revolutionary War and what it stood for. Now i admit that we have forgotten many of our core principles but it should be noted that we are one of the gurus of revolutions. I will now show you what i mean...


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

See people don't fight because of emotions... they fight for freedoms and rights not only for themselves but so one day their kids could grow up and become ignorant of their rights and freedoms and not understand how precious and fragile they are. Then their great great grand kids let the powers that be eat away at these rights while they are being milked like sheep and start to think that people fight over silly things like emotions and pigs (not sure if you guys are going to get my little joke there but if you have to explain it it is not funny so).. after a while of this people get sick of being treated like sheep (kind of like "you don't know what you have till it is gone" type of thing) and they start to fight of freedoms and rights...Lather, rinse, repeat


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