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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:18 am 
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I have been following the story here and there. Anyone who would care discuss, please I am all ears. But I have a question for anyone who practices Islam here.

I am a Catholic who frequently hears about the Crusades and the Inquisition and death in the name of "my" God (for the sake of discussion). And also about God-fearing individuals who perform heinous deeds for the sake of God, or because God told them to, etc. etc. etc. As if these deeds represent everything that Catholicism and the Holy Bible stands for. Surely, there are passages about killing and death and the oft-misunderstood lessons about those who go to Hell, and so forth. It is difficult to explain or to defend these passages to people who are ignorant of it in the first place, because naturally when they read about "all-loving" God and his seemingly evil deeds, the conclusion to draw is that God is intolerant and impatient or God is the fountain of evil. Or for others, he is unable, unwilling, or he just plain doesn't exist.

News stories of these kind (I'm speaking about Catholicism) disappoint me, because obviously these people are misguided and have committed an evil act, or acts. It gives Catholicism a bad name, to put in simple terms. No one likes anyone killing anyone (most of the time), and for the billions of people out there who hear about these stories, how easy it is for them (especially the ignorant ones, forgive me for saying so) to come to the wrong conclusions, and very very quickly and very very stubbornly and without ANY inclination to even think it through as to WHY it happened, WHOSE fault it really is, WHAT the Catholic church actually thinks about these things, or even perhaps what Biblical passages DON'T support them.

SO --

I do believe Libra practices Islam (?), is there anyone else who can shed light on this for THEIR faith?

Please, let's share Biblical passages that seem to encourage death or suffering. Let's share passages or teachings of Islam in the same fashion. Let's discuss how good, faithful practicing Muslims feel about the radicals who fly planes into buildings, who stone women, and so forth.

Are there also feelings of the same kind that I have in regards to bad Catholics who do evil in the name of God, for good Muslims in regards to bad Muslims who do evil in the name of Allah?

Discuss, please, and respectfully. Thoughts, feelings, questions, comments, all of the above.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:16 pm 
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I seem to recall something about witches, suffering them to live?
By the way, was the persecution, torturing and killiing of 'witches' just a few odd folk or a systemic program of 'ethnic cleansing' by the catholic church?

It's not so much about the misguided actions of alleged followers Tommy, it's the scope of it, it's global application and that the god of which you speak seemingly content to allow atrocities in his/her/it's name.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:59 pm 
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Ah, so it's not "who is to blame" as much as it is WHY god would allow it in the first place?

This is actually the first I have heard about suffering the witches to live. As I read, it is, I guess, the justification for killing someone who practices witchcraft. (?) No need for quotations around "witches"; I do believe there are those who practice it and I would assume, especially, back before Christ. I don't want to give misinformation, but this is my current understanding. I will read more.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:01 pm 
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By the way, I do not want this to turn into a "why does god allow evil" thread; let's keep that question or thought as part of the list without going too deep into it, unless it's completely necessary. Or let's pose it as a new thread all together.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:26 am 
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The ' around witches refers not to the reality of practicing witchcraft but the use of the title as an excuse to kill for the personal gain of bishops.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:26 pm 
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I see. I can understand, maybe, the killing of a witch because witchcraft is rooted in evil (there are no "good" witches), for the sake of the common good. But you're going to have to explain how the killing of witches was a personal gain for the bishops.

In any case, I'm not sure what exactly you have a problem with. I haven't heard, though there may be, any stories about the killing of witches very recently. In fact, not since the Salem Witch Trials which, of course, were wrongful and are not condoned in the first place, except by misguided Puritans.

Surely your beef with Christian denominations of all kinds are not based on the killing of witches. And we have already put a check-mark next to "god allows evil".

Are there specifics?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:33 pm 
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"I see. I can understand, maybe, the killing of a witch because witchcraft is rooted in evil (there are no "good" witches), for the sake of the common good. But you're going to have to explain how the killing of witches was a personal gain for the bishops."

Now that Tom, is why I can't get my head adjusted to the christian teaching, witchcraft is NOT rooted in evil. That's the kind of utter bollocks spread by the church of peace and love in it's desperation to take over the world. Witchcraft is simply a nature based religion that was there pre christianity, 1000's of years pre.
Now I know, as historical fact, the 'evil' argument is a flat lie. How than do I trust any other of the 'teachings'?

Bishops and gain? All the information is freely available, research laddie, research.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:27 pm 
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I'm sorry if I have given misinformation. It is my understanding that witchcraft is the use of magical and supernatural powers for the sake harming others. What is it? I understand it is nature-based, all good and well. Either way, sir, I'm confused as to why your beef rooted in wizardry?

I don't know how to search "personal gain for bishops", my friend. What can I look for that would point to the Bible being a means of enforcing political control?

DSW wrote:
Now I know, as historical fact, the 'evil' argument is a flat lie. How than do I trust any other of the 'teachings'?
This is ambiguous.



Are there Muslims in this thread? Do we hold the same feelings in regards to bad Muslims giving Islam a bad name, as bad Catholics give Catholicism a bad name?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:03 am 
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Hi Tommy GS ..

Sorry for the late reply to this thread but its just I came by now.
Yes I am Muslim but I am not like the broad blinded herd, some Muslims who will read this would be totally amazed to my coming lines but here I go:

If Islam stipulated that for the sake of God we must kill others simply coz they have different belief or faith than ours - then am glad to be out of this belief now.

I am more to reach the idea of 'God' through Islam, Christianity or whatever since the contents of the belief is so into chemistry with my logic, common sense and experiences so yes to this belief or ideas (no matter old fashioned or new).

Sometimes I have this notion roaming abouts my mind ... God won't like or favor a group of believers and discard others :) .... it is either we are all so right or we are all so wrong. I don't believe in discrimination even in this point (Of course, any extremist belonging to any group would feel like am not okay but I dont care). Right in the sense that our logic guides us that the universe around us is so elevated and sophisticated that by no means this creation is made at random. But again, I do respect others who would simply say the otherwise.

I am so with those people who abandon religions or any faith coz of the chaotic results of wars and fights they see around. They just felt that religions made people form groups to fight not to unite and understand the other. I am not an idealist Tommy believe me but I walk my talk. I have the Bible at home same as Quran and I do respect any constructive belief for the sake of humanity and love.

As for the weirdo ideas of stoning and flying planes into buildings and other wicked stuff ... I do think they are invented by some sick minds who aim to manipulate the other ignorant herds in the name of Islam so they claim that Islam ordered this and that to could put these actions into force. I am so sure these have no relation with the Islamic peaceful call - only it is some terrorist black plans who would want to legalize them by attaching to Islam.

Those who kill underneath the fake motto of God are no more than devils who want to promote for more terror and surely they have lame motives to do that. No sane person would accept this regardless a Muslim or Jude or Christian or Atheist ... if my faith is not calling for what's a common sense, logic, loving, peace .... I would be the first to free myself from its blinding ties, if any.

I have a lot to discuss here, its such an interesting topic ... to be continued.


Libra.

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Last edited by libra&libra on Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:03 am 
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Not 'rooted' in wizardry dear chap, it's just a pointed example of the despicable misinformation spread and maintained by the church. There is nothing in witchcraft not in christianity, just a different method of prayer.
There is also the rule of 3's. Anything you wish on others comes back threefold, so a working to do harm needs to VERY carefully thought through. As an interesting thought Wicca is recognised by the US military now.
May I suggest you seek facts before spouting rhetoric?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:06 am 
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Haha - friend, you'll have to forgive me, my knowledge on witchcraft is not up to snuff. ;)

Edit: Also, how do I search for evidence that supports the Bible being a politically-driven endeavor?


Last edited by Tommy GS on Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:25 am 
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Libra, thank you for the response. I am glad - without giving disrespect to DSW - I can discuss Godly issues with someone who believes in God. ;)

Let's discuss, I have much interest in this topic lately. Yet, I don't even know where to begin.

I don't struggle with the notion of God taking life away. If He is the one who gives it - if He has the authority and power over it - then, what's to stop him from taking it away? There are no constraints at all. What I struggle with is the idea of God giving permission to MEN to do this for him. There are, indeed, examples of God in the Old Testament giving orders to stone, or kill, or whatever it was. The juxtaposition of this is the NEW Testament. Story after story, teaching after teaching about love. (Indeed, also the warnings and exhortations for fear of the 'wailing and grinding of teeth' and, essentially, eternal damnation. But this is not a matter of God's choosing.; this is a matter of human choice. In fact, there is a part in book of Hosea where SUFFERS over the idea of having to "make his people suffer" or whatever. God wants us to choose Love, yes?)

Libra, this is where I struggle - at least, I can take comfort and KNOW that the love in the NT is what we're called for, regardless of the 'antiquated' teachings of the OT. But, Libra, is there an equivalent to the NT in the Quran? What sayings of peace are there in Quran? I am ignorant of this.

What is Islam all about? And how can/do you support it?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:43 pm 
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I've read, extensively, our bible. Now I'm slowly working through the Quran. It cost me $1.50 ish on e-bay. Admittgedly I'm not far into it, but the similarities are there.

By the bye, you do have my respect young Tommy, if not my agreement.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:19 pm 
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Hey Tommy; you are most welcome!

This is truly interesting topic and am so keen to express my ideas more than just copy/paste texts from here and there just to bring about proofs and that's it. The real contribution here - as I assume - is how to meet at common grounds regardless the 'interesting' differences we come along with. Its a NOT easy task but never impossible, I promise you all :)
Btw: am so glad that DSW is contributing as usual but in this topic in special coz as you know he is not into the religion notion but so very open minded to listen and give the right advice.

First off: Tommy, am so convinced with your point where you said that God is the one who granted us our lives and is so capable to take it away - so logically appealing as seems. But here comes the core point of discussion ... how can we get to be sure that 'those' who claim to be on God's behalf on earth are having the absolute right to act like gods 'take lives away' and do whatever they 'think' is right? - Of course it is hard to state or confirm that or even fully trust their actions that's why any country has got its laws and stipulations (whether these laws are mingled with any form of religion or merely adhering to the neutral international laws) ... lets make it a bit simpler and cut it down into pieces:
If someone attacked you in your own house for stealing purpose ... and it happened that you both indulged into a fight ending up killing the intruder, would that be a sin? (hey you killed a soul) - YES but he was an attacker and if I had not killed him, I would be the victim. so Killing here is legalized.
On the other hand; Bin Laden (supposedly a so-called muslim figure) set his maps, trained his terrorists group, prayed his 5 prayers and supported them with ammunition, moreover planted the needed hatred into the hearts of those hypnotized by him (followers) against other groups and sorting them as blasphemers ... fly his planes into buildings killing the innocent folks and am so sure including those victims were another muslims, how stupid he was/is!!! so Killing here is not justified coz it simply contradicts our 'nature'.

Bottom line here; 'Killing' is regarded in both cases as action leading to the same consequence which is taking away a soul but surely with two totally different motives and reasons. So; if any faith is not made to support our instinct guiding it in a refined way then this faith should be omitted.

Secondly and in answering your quest; "OT and NT" and their equivalent in Quran in regards to the scary options 'eternal damnation, hell, horrific scenes and themes etc etc & etc" in addition to the other "Heavenly parts" which await those who follow the right path .... are all found in Quran. Thus, Quran is a book of threat to those who deviate from the norm at the same time it sends cheerful messages to those who are abiding by the right path and promoting for it. Same as if you have a kid and you are kinda trying to teach him indirectly; if you crossed the street without your parents you'll certainly get hit and would be bad accident but if you were good and walked beside your parents then you'd surely be safe (Warning and threat are found same as the good example as well).

Oh yeah the idea of love and peace are so broadly and numerously mentioned in Quran (I am so sure in other holy books too!) so to support my words and to be precise the word "Peace" was mentioned in Quran for 50 times and if you noticed the signature of DSW which is of course written in Arabic font "السلام عليكم" is considered the official greeting in Islam meaning "Peace be upon us all" and in addition Prophet Muhammed advised his people in his saying quoting "Spread peace amongst all people" - he didnt mention among muslims only! so peace is the main theme in Islam, true muslims adhere to it and act accordingly - other than that is a severe breaching to the peaceful lines of Islam where they would burn in hell for it.

And lastly but not finally for now ... you have asked "What is Islam about?" A really good question and smart one indeed.

Islam is simply about 'Peace' same as the Bible is and other beliefs are about. So why having several books tackling and revolving around the same notion? Simply because Islam is not an isolated branch on its own ... people think, even some muslims, unfortunately (outta ignorance) that it is a separated belief ... it is not, it is a CONTINUATION to what came previously of holy books, a further explanation and an extended attempt to could heal lost soul, you want another proof sure: we muslims are so comfortable to set our prayers in Churches coz we believe a Mosque is so equal to the purity of the Church ... (that if we have permission to do our prayers there from our Christian brothers and sisters ... like there are no built Mosques in the area and so on.) So, if there is a discrimination or isolation we would set boundaries and conflicts would grow ... this is how a healthy muslim mind should be and is supposed to be - it is not a wish- it is a must do thing! (That is once more: Be symbol of peace and help spreading peace).

Some additional personal info to support my talk here; I been brought up in a Christian School namely "Armenian Catholic Sisters' School" since I was in the kindergarten until I graduated from there at the age of 17. so nearly half of my life being spent in a Christian school ... I owe this foundation a lot, been taught properly about both religions and life, been taught about different sciences and above all ... been taught how to be a human being.

Damn! am so talkative, hope you have not taken any naps here lol

Still eager to continue more and more :)


Libra.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:52 am 
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Ingesting... doing research... Too early in the morning anyway ;) ......


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