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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:11 pm 
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I agree with sigsfried in most of what he wrote (especially that it is better to treat people as if they have free will). I want to say to everyone, only physics can give answer to the question of determinism. (I think nowadays physics is not able to give really truly answer) I study physics and I'm thinking about determinism almost everyday. Now, I'm sure that we do not heve freewill, (if we actually had, that would be breaking of physics laws!!!) But I also think that future is unpredetermined, indefinite, unpredictable and there is nothing like fate. I think there are many (maybe infinite number) possible worlds but only one will happen. (this though is based on quantum mechanics and idea of probability) But we do not decide which of these possible worlds become real world. We can just watch how the things are going and enjoy our great (and mysterious) world.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:15 pm 
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It is funny, name of forum is Fate vs Freewill, and I say NO fate and NO freewill :D


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:24 pm 
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So thats three of us all saying well there can't be free will but fate sounds wrong.
I'm not certain that determinism can be totally dismissed there is a growing trend in physics (though it is still only a tiny amount of people) to start to think maybe quatum mechanics doesn't truly produce randomness just an apparant randomness analagous to brownian motion before Einsteins way of explaining it. Though this randomness has only the most minute of diffrences even if it does exist.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:47 pm 
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And sigsfried i agree with u, for me, the term fate has an airy-fairy connotation to it. All the bubbly, naive and air-headed ppl that ive come across in my life have readily used this term... thas prolly y i now associate that term with that meaning.


MSAMAN,
I think that was a little uncalled for. I know people have their opinions, but please don't start labeling people before you know them. I use the word fate all the time, but I am not a bubbly, naive and air-headed person. Not all people that use the word fate are that way.

Anywho, so we have three people that believe that we do not have free will, but fate is wrong. Now is this saying that there is no such thing as fate, or that there is fate and it's wrong that it exists?

I guess I'm just one of those people that has learned not to question the way things work. Like our topic: FATE

Just like the words time and normal. There is no way to explain or put a definition to fate. Everyone has there own opinion. We could sit here and converse on this subject for ages, but would we really ever come up with an answer? Would any of us finally come to a conclusion as to if fate truly exists, or if we run our own lives through free will? Probably not!

Does anyone here agree with me?
Let me know!

Raven

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:48 pm 
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Raven its unfortunate that u took my observation so personally. I was simply stating a trend that i have witnessed in my life, and not a fact. That is why i used the terms FOR ME and IN MY LIFE. But considering ive met less than 1% of the world population in my 18 yrs of life, by no means are all ppl that use that term, the aforementioned characteristics.

And another thing, philosophy is obviously not a subect for u, if u (like u have stated) believe questioning the intangible shud be avoided. If all ppl thot that way, our intellectual growth wud b seriously stunted. It is vital that we comprehend what is not in material terms as well, to further our intellects. And as u have stated, we may not, in our lives, reach solid conclusions about this topic but we will improve our understanding of it and perhaps one day, when our science has improved enough, be able to use this knowledge to define fate and free will in real terms.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:41 pm 
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MSANAM,
You are right, and I am sorry. I should not have taken what you said so personally. Today was just one of those days. :(

For being the open minded person that I am, I should not shy away from the possiblity of ever answering the existence of fate or free will. You have made some good points. I actually like philosophy, so in that respect you have misunderstood me. Somethings, and I say somethings, I believe should not be figured out, but not all things. If I said that everything we do not understand should not be figured out, I would be contradicting my own life.

Anywho, nobody has answered my question yet:

Code:
Anywho, so we have three people that believe that we do not have free will, but fate is wrong. Now is this saying that there is no such thing as fate, or that there is fate and it's wrong that it exists?


Tootles,
Raven

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:48 am 
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Ach, give me ten years, I will study physics and than, perhaps, I will answer your qustion. Phylosophy is really great, but u can not use only it when u want to explain things like this. You can not look at this world with human eyes. Human eyes wasnt evolututed to explain such a "distant" things from our everyday life. We have to look at he world through physical equations and through physical experiments. And also with the will of phylosophers to understand and explain things :D


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:08 am 
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@Ravenheart.
Wrong as in incorrect but that doesn't explain it completly doesn't feel like the right word.
@Semo. I agree to some degree but while science finds things out Philosphy can to some extent act as a governing mechanism.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:05 am 
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I wonder if maybe we have a set destination in life. An endpoint maybe... one specific reason why we were put here, and the rest is freewill to do as we wish... a mix of free will (yin) and fate (yang). Though :? ... It's not quite working out of my head onto the screen :? ... maybe someone a little less tired can piece this togetherand help me make some sense of it :? ... Thanks 8O !

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:52 pm 
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We have:

Yin=free will
Yang=fate

fate is the purpose for why we are here. Why we were created or placed in this world. You could also say that each person has their own purpose for being here, and that would be their fate.

Once here, they are free to take their purpose and do what they want with it.
Hence, we have free will.

Does that make any sense?

Raven

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:13 am 
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sigsfried,

Quote:
It appears to me that Free Will requires the total destruction of a materialist outlook


I don't believe it does at all, but perhaps you could be more specific with what you mean by 'materialist outlook.'

farsix,

Quote:
Even when the choices seem to be between bad and almost as bad, they still don't feel programmed or predestined so I'm going with my gut feeling that they are neither.


You can never go with your 'gut feeling' on anything, you should always use your mind, if you do not feel you can argue something (anything) coherently, then you should seek to educate yourself. To trust your feelings is to willingly accept a branch of philosophy that clearly advocates determinism.

Destiny creator,

Quote:
I believe that both fate and freewill exist. To a certain extent, some events are meant to happen


The first statement is a complete contradiction. By the laws of metaphysics this is completely impossible.

What events are 'meant to happen?'

MSANAM,

Quote:
And sigsfried i agree with u, for me, the term fate has an airy-fairy connotation to it. All the bubbly, naive and air-headed ppl that ive come across in my life have readily used this term... thas prolly y i now associate that term with that meaning


You're probably confusing fatalism and determinism.

Semo,

Quote:
Phylosophy is really great, but u can not use only it when u want to explain things like this. You can not look at this world with human eyes.


Incidentally, metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that this question is concerned with, and you've contradicted yourself in the second sentence: if you cannot look at this world with human eyes, how do you know anything is true in your physics experiments?

-fish are quick!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:51 am 
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No wonder why thats your name here!

Fish are quick, and quick you are. To fish out flaws. Thats what you've done. So fish quick fish, then fish some more, for you fish freely where fate hasn't won.

Sorry, I was full of the devil again :P

I wasn't making fun of you, just stating how good you are at your name.

Tootles,
Raven

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:00 pm 
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Explain to me again how the laws of physics predetermine that there is no such thing as free will. I'm a little shaky on (read: I have never heard of) determinism.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:05 pm 
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The materialist outlook is one of determinism. To allow free will is to destroy determinism.

Quote:
The laws of metaphysics

No such things really. No laws can be derived from claiming metaphysics is generally a way of casting doubt on a knowledge claim.

Quote:

You're probably confusing fatalism and determinism.

True but describing a reasonable diffrence is tricky

Quote:
Incidentally, metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that this question is concerned with, and you've contradicted yourself in the second sentence: if you cannot look at this world with human eyes, how do you know anything is true in your physics experiments?


We rely on the output being roughly right but machines take the actual results all we have to assume therfore is that the screen display is something like what would be expected.

If I have misrepresented anyone here I apolagise.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:53 am 
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I think that Compatibilism most reflects my ideas on this subject. I had not heard of it before but according to Wikipedia
Quote:
Compatibilism, also known as "soft determinism" and most famously championed by Hume, is a theory which holds that free will and determinism are compatible. According to Hume, free will should not be understood as an absolute ability to have chosen differently under exactly the same inner and outer circumstances. Rather, it is a hypothetical ability to have chosen differently if one had been differently psychologically disposed by some different beliefs or desires. Hume also maintains that free acts are not uncaused (or mysteriously self-caused as Kant would have it) but caused by our choices as determined by our beliefs, desires, and by our characters. While a decision making process exists in Hume's determinism, this process is governed by a causal chain of events. For example, a person may make the decision to support Wikipedia, but that decision is determined by the conditions that existed prior to the decision being made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism

Life is like a game of cards. The hand you are dealt is determinism; the way you play it is free will.
~Jawaharial Nehru

All men and women are born, live suffer and die; what distinguishes us one from another is our dreams, whether they be dreams about worldly or unworldly things, and what we do to make them come about... We do not choose to be born. We do not choose our parents. We do not choose our historical epoch, the country of our birth, or the immediate circumstances of our upbringing. We do not, most of us, choose to die; nor do we choose the time and conditions of our death. But within this realm of choicelessness, we do choose how we live.
~Joseph Epstein


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