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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 7:08 pm 
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how do you all feel about the invasion of iraq? and by the way, where were the "weapons of mass destruction"?

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 10:46 pm 
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As for the invasion, I feel that since we are over there we oughta do it right. I don't like that we went over there. Someone should have taken out Saddam years ago. I think that was an awsome idea. But we should have killed him on the spot, none of this detain and trial stuff... but someone needed to take him out. We did that, and I am glad. Now, we need to completely demolish terrorist forces over there. When I say that I mean that we need to get them to calm down. If that means leaving, then we speed up the process of handing over the power. But now I also think that we have two obligations. Our first is to America for 9-11. Anyone and everyone responsible for that should die... please excuse, I get a little emotional over my country... our second obligation is to the people over in Iraq. We have dismantled their country, and now we owe it to them to fix it up RIGHT. I don't like hearing that more and more men have died because of those damn people (terrorists) but that is their job. I feel that we need to get it set up for a transfer of power, and leave. Cut all ties. But not a second before every thing responsible for 9-11 has been destroyed. I need to stop typing, as I have already offended enough poeple, and this topic makes my blood boil beyond reason. Those against patriotism, I guess I just became a great argument... :x :evil: :!:

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 12:39 am 
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I think the on-going invasion of Iraq by the US, Australia and other country forces is not justified simply by the proposal that Iraq has dangerous terrorists, and need I forget, supposed nuclear weapons. Though, I strongly support this objective – to rid the world of terrorists for the crimes that they have committed against the Western and Eastern world – I think there are 2 fundamental problems in the correct status quo.
1). In the actual approach embraced; and
2). the serious lack of consideration for the Iraqi civilians.

The second point is fairly self-explanatory, but it is the first point that I wish to address in more depth. Currently we (the supporters of anti-terrorism) are spending lump sums of money locating and killing these people that have undoubtedly caused immense problems worldwide. And unfortunately, in the process, thousands of Iraqi civilians are being killed. The main problem here is that we are fighting THE SYMPTOMS of a problem but ignoring the REAL INSTIGATOR of these symptoms. If doctors were to use this approach, fro example, on cancer patients, the money spent on locating terrorists is analogous to the money doctors would then need to spend on treating their patients for hair loss, weak bones and the numerous other symptoms of cancer. But the real bug causing all this havoc (the cancer) would not be treated, so it would continue to grow, and symptoms would simultaneously proliferate. Thus, our approach for resolving this issue lacks strategy, it is merely grasping a physical-counterattack approach. More specifically, we need to work out the reason for this behavior and attack that rather than the symptoms, because they will always exist as long as the core problem is alive.

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 3:58 am 
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YinYangSearcher wrote:
Well then, whuppinboy, may I ask you what your idea of patriotism might be?


support your fellow man regardless of race or economic status. we're only here for a short while so make the best of it.

YinYangSearcher wrote:
Since all of our ideas were flawed (And please explain that also, if you could)... I am just curious what your idea of patriotism is,


i never said anyone's ideas were flawed or were incorrect, i simply pointed out what some people overlook in their declaration of how saintly our ancestors were. they had great ideas and were lucky enough to be among the elite at the time and could draft something like that with no general input from the current populace.

YinYangSearcher wrote:
and I also want to know whether you believe that patriotism in your countries ideals, not it's leaders, is a good thing. Thanks
Yang.


patriotism in this country's ideals over it's politicians (no matter how flawed), definitely. there may be some "honest" politicians out there truly looking out for their constituents but they soon find out you have to scratch backs to get your itch taken care of. right now there's a politician out there that wants to wire up little kids, grandmas, grandpas, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters all in the name of the "drug war" or send them to jail. (www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=139454). it's ridiculous, really it is. we don't live in a perfect world but the one thing that does shine through all of this is one of the most famous quotes ever that drives this country (and is probably responsible for the state of this country in a roundabout way ;) ) is:

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. (yea, i'm missing the first part :P)

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 7:48 am 
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And in response to the Q about Patriotism, my explanation for the diminishing patriotic attitude of the average American is directly related to the loss in faith for current American leaders. This has led to a shift in popularity from a 'national democracy' to a 'liberal state' because the distrust for leaders has minimised the support for representation. Thus, the famous slogan 'America: One Land, One People' is no longer an accurate portrayal of this country, as the belief in a single leader representing the entire country, ie. allowing one voice to speak for all Americans, is no longer a trusted form of organisation.


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 7:53 am 
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I ahve to agree with you there... so how do we fix the problem?

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 10:06 am 
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Have an elected parliment then its not one person representing one nation its one person representing a state (Still not perfect but it's better)

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 10:52 am 
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Sounds a lot like the house and sentate setup we have... :(

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 12:06 pm 
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True but it doesn't have enough power. Look at the amount of time Bush spends in the House compared to the time Blair spends in the House of Commons. Then consider the fact that Blair is moaned at for not spending enough enough time in the HoC. Also as far as I'm aware there is no American equivalent of Prime Minsters Questions.

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 2:01 pm 
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"The love of one's country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border?"
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 9:12 am 
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YinYangSearcher wrote:
I ahve to agree with you there... so how do we fix the problem?


Well i can't say i know much about "their" (terrorist networks') reasons for the fierce attacks, but in general terms, i think its based on a battle for power. With increasing foreign intervention, and installation of pro-western political structures in these countries, among other things, has led them to believe (justifiably) that they stand inferior to the interveners that have necessarily more authority then. Another effect of these western actions is the nations that they(westerners) do not respect their way of life and, as religion is closely tied with their lives, equally don’t respect their religion. A thorough investigation into the reasons for this behavior is required for a successful suppression of terrorism.


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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 11:01 am 
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I wonder if anyone has thought of sitting down at a table and talking to them... I mean, I hate them for what they did, btu I really wouldn't mind a cease fire. I just want Bin Laden and whoever else led 9-11. After that I wouldn't care if the USA never stepped a political foot or military boot within the middle eastern border. I want MY country back to the way it was...
Yang

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:14 am 
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the problem is all the cold war era stuff left over. alls we have to do is get out, and let the middle east calm down.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:29 am 
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Yin i think ur stance on this is realli fair. It's a pity tho that in this day and age, our leaders (both participants) can't resolve problems using a non-violent approach, specifically a verbal-communicative approach, as u have suggested. One main reason for it, i think, is that leaders look for methods that will resolve problems fastest, as their leadership positions may be at stake otherwise. I.e. tho the discussion method produces better results than military intervention does, and more importantly, less negative implications, the fact that it takes longer to implement it, completely eliminates it as a possible option. And that links bak to the political organisation in the US. The fact that the position of President is dependent upon citizenry vote can and has resulted in bias decision-making, ie made specifically to favour particular groups in society rather than what is for the greater good and will stand the test of time. In this case, those that have felt the pain of 9/11 the most have demanded instant results, and thus mechanisms have been instilled for fast results rather than for results that will endure over time and concurrently contribute towrads improving relations between these two countries in the future.

And as i mentioned before, less intervention is a key for success in the middle-east, because for one(as bright-shadow has pointed out) - the spill over effects of the cOld War are still very relevant and apparent in those countries.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:57 am 
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I agree with both you guys, but as I said, I want to see the people responsible for 9-11 brought to justice... after that, I don't care about the middle east and would prefer an imediate peaceful removal of all American pressence from the area.

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