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 Post subject: A Lack Of Patriotism...
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 8:33 pm 
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Enigma
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I have noticed that the days of a whole people being willing to stand up and defend their country from anything and everything has gone. There was a time in the last 5 or 6 decades in which all Americans loved their country. They were willing to stand firm and defend what it and they believed in, through the good and the bad. I just want to know where did all that go? What caused Patriotism to be left to a handful of what are now called extremist republicans and rednecks?

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:40 am 
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No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots.~Barbara Ehrenreich

We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it.~Edward R. Murrow

The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.~H.L. Mencken


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 6:24 am 
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The Sceptic
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Do you think patriotism is a good thing I don't. To me the strong patriotism is theese days gone from Europe and I look forward to the day it dissapears from America for I think it will make the world a safer place

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 8:00 am 
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Patriotism and all other versions of it, will never be gone form this world. To me patriotism isnt a bad thing...but its not amazing either, its just another thing.
Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. -George Bernard Shaw

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:43 am 
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The Sceptic
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Yes but in much of Europe patriotism is basically supporting your countries sports teams. If somebody in Britian burned the Union Flag in thier garden the only compleint you'd get is if a neighbour was an ex-army general or the smoke coming off it was bad. In America if somone burns their flag the reaction is in the main a little stronger. Patriotism, like many deeply held beliefs, is irrational and can cause people not to question the goverenment or to accept things like wars. Even here the 'Don't upset the hired killers while they are busy killing people' many to shut up some of the politicans who apposed the war in Iraq and from what I have heard from friends in America it was worse there this I think is directly attributable to the stronger patriotism in America than there is in Britian.

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"I tend to think if God wanted us to believe in him he'd exist."


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 11:01 am 
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Enigma
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I have noticed that a large group of people with a passion towards a common goal can accomplish any task that is set before them. As much as I love this country, I have come to accept the fact that the fall of America is near, and that a strong surge of patriotism is the only thing that will save us if even for a little while. Patriotism is what kept the politicians from bleeding our country dry. It kept our leaders and our people looking out for the common good, and holding on to something that wasn't twisted by the mixed beliefs of too much diversity. I don't see how a person can believe that patriotism alltogether vanishing can be in any way good. Have some pride in your country, because sooner or later that may be all we've got left.

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We hold these truths to be selve evident, but evidence is not ownership. Those words are not a decree that we have life, liberty, happiness. Only an iron clad statement that it is ours if we are willing to do all that is necessary to take it.


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:11 pm 
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The Sceptic
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I don't see how it is good you can have passionate belief in a goal without going down the road of irrationality. Patriotism has caused many wars killing many people. How can that be good. Then again the culutural environment here and I would NEVER swear an oath of alligance. It has occured to me their is another occasion when you see patriotism here: Last night of the Proms. But other than that the total distrust of all in authority and with no common link between people partiotism is very minor here

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"The Truth may be out there but the lies are in your head"
"I tend to think if God wanted us to believe in him he'd exist."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:24 pm 
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QuoteMaster
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I think a fantastic patriotic quote can always be found in KiTH. Here's a good one...

Axel: Can you not think of the baboon's ass as the American flag?
Shona: Yes... in which case I would want to burn it!

Ok, not quite patriotic. You guys were doing better. I'll just, erm, back out...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 7:28 pm 
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Why is patriotism gone? Why do you see people burning the American Flag? Why don't people stand to The Flag anymore? Why is their so much opposition and diversity? A lot of people might agree with me, and a lot of people here will probably look down at me, but this is my opinion.

There isn't any patriotism left in this nation because the government has turned to ashes. All the government prides in doing is starting wars. Wars that many people here are agaisnt. It takes money away from people who need it, creating higher taxes. It kills our families, our loved ones. We attempt to help other countries, giving them money that our country needs for those who are poor.

Then there is the flag. Everything our flag stands for is false. Everything our national anthem stands for is false. Do you see equlity here in America?

We stand for a flag and we sing a song for those who fight in other countries killing not only enemies but innocent people. Still we try to take over other countries to gain advantages that there countries hold. In Iraq we are trying to change the way people have lived for years to our own advantage. Trying to change their governmental system. Why? Why can't we just leave these people alone?

I personally have stopped standing for the flag for many of these reasons. I am against war. Yes, many of my other posts contradict this. If my loved ones got in the middle of a war, I would fight with them too, but only to keep them alive. I would hold no patriotism for this country though. This country in my eyes has turned cruel and untrustworthy.

Let me know what you think.

Raven

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:50 pm 
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Enigma
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For the first time, Raven, it hurts me to agree with you. I say that it hurts because I love America, but you have said the truth. America has gone to the way-side. Our flag no longer stands for what it did, what it should. It hurts.... Not even a pain. It creates something of a hole in my gut. It's as though I now see that America, which I love blindly, is much like a cheating lover. She has turned her back on me and has gone to the politicians.... Now I pose the question to you all, how would a people regain the patriotism that they once had? The true, good patriotism.... I dunno.... :( It's not a good feeling....

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We hold these truths to be selve evident, but evidence is not ownership. Those words are not a decree that we have life, liberty, happiness. Only an iron clad statement that it is ours if we are willing to do all that is necessary to take it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:36 pm 
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QuoteMaster
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I definately agree with sigsfried on this one. Patriotism leads to blind faith, and blind faith leads to supporting something without rationally considering what you are supporting. Part of what made Fascism so popular was the fact that the leaders instilled blind faith in their subjects. If we do not question authority, we risk regressing hundreds of years and who knows what could happen if no one pays attention. This is evidenced in the fact that Hitler was able to kill millions of people because he instilled his intense patriotism in his subjects, and few people had the courage to question his authority.

Im not saying patriotism in its purest form is necessarily a bad thing, but we must always make sure that we honestly consider that which we are supporting.

My second opposition is Nahwatah Ravenheart's refusal to stand for the flag. I used to ramain seated during the pledge of allegiance, in protest, hoping to show my discontent with the current governement policies and distaste for contemporary American culture and its lack of ethics. I have come to realize however, that standing for the American flag does not mean that you support everything this country is doing now or has done in the past, but it means you support the ideals upon which this country was founded, which I would hope most educated individuals would support. Though I stand as a way to show respect, I do not believe in pledging blind allegiance a country whose government I do not support, but respect for a lost, struggling country trying to extend its hands to everyone, though maybe not in the best possible ways, should be shown.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:54 pm 
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Enigma
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Destiny, I agree with you 100%. I know that blind faith of a leader is a terrible idea. As you said, Hitler went on his run of mass slaughter and near world domination due to blind faith. BNut what I fel we need is Patriotism for our country, not it's leaders. I hate it's leaders. I hate anyone who is a poilitician (Please forgive me if I have offended, but I feel that to be a politician in today's world you are forced to be come corrupt). But I love my country, it's people, and my flag and it's ideals. That is what I feel we nedd to be having some patriotism about.

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We hold these truths to be selve evident, but evidence is not ownership. Those words are not a decree that we have life, liberty, happiness. Only an iron clad statement that it is ours if we are willing to do all that is necessary to take it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 3:53 am 
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you all forget this country was stolen....err, founded by rejects from the british government. they based the whole of the constitution on ideals and sweeping gestures that were not allowed in britain.

there never was any patriotism to believe in or if there was it was misguided and obfuscated. you talk of equality in this country in today's world, back when our ancestors wanted a "new life", they brought and bought slaves and didn't think twice about it.

you all have an idea of what patriotism should be and do not see what or where/how that word came into being.

i do, however, believe in this country and the opportunities it provides for people that are willing to bust their butt and trample their fellow man. but also it's amazing that no matter how terrible some people think the USA is, there are other people in other countries that are dreaming of the day that they can cross the ocean and start a new life in good ol' America.

either way, the citizens (not migrants/immigrants/illegals) are the mercy of the politicians as you all have stated above but again, that's who gave us the rules we live by today originally so is it really any surprise that to this day we are still at their mercy??

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:07 am 
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Enigma
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Well then, whuppinboy, may I ask you what your idea of patriotism might be? Since all of our ideas were flawed (And please explain that also, if you could)... I am just curious what your idea of patriotism is, and I also want to know whether you believe that patriotism in your countries ideals, not it's leaders, is a good thing. Thanks
Yang.

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We hold these truths to be selve evident, but evidence is not ownership. Those words are not a decree that we have life, liberty, happiness. Only an iron clad statement that it is ours if we are willing to do all that is necessary to take it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:00 pm 
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Last edited by thenostromo on Thu May 26, 2005 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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