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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:18 am 
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The Sceptic
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All animals in existance are equally adapted to there enviroment pretty much. However there is no denying that we have the most developed brain of any animal capable to utilize it.

Morals will have evovled if they give a species an advantage but also must give an individual in a group an advantage. I think as a result of our inteligence it may be possible for them to evolve explaining our moral system without reference to an external intelligent entity (such as God)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:09 pm 
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sigsfried wrote:
However there is no denying that we have the most developed brain of any animal capable to utilize it.

By our own idea of who is more developed. (Just something to think about.)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:54 am 
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RhyanonSorenson wrote:
sigsfried wrote:
However there is no denying that we have the most developed brain of any animal capable to utilize it.

By our own idea of who is more developed. (Just something to think about.)
Exactly. We can only evaluate our standing in the grand schema to the extent limited by our own ability to perceive.

What makes it possible for geese to fly in perfect formation, for example?

We arrogant homo sapiens feel that our brains are the most developed basically because we are unable to perceive the brains or understand the motor skills of other primates...or other living things.

Does a tomato feel pain when it's picked? Does the tree have an emotion when it's aging and branches die? How about the joy felt by a mosquito when it sucks your blood before it dies? Are queen bees better leaders than our politicians? (Oops, I thinks I'll leave that one alone.)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:03 pm 
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Nice to see someone agrees with me! That's exactly true! :D

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:19 am 
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lol. I think i just found the point where Phix left the forum. Wondered where he got to.

So weve made it to the point where humans are no longer as intelligent as we think we are. Moving along nicely :P

But back on topic (this topic does seem a little dead, but well see what happens if i post in it shall we.) To understand whether or not morals evolve, we have to understand morals. (Which we started to do but got sidetract in the worthy quest of bagging the human race)

Morals and ethics are the things that guide us through our lives, control us to do 'right' and 'wrong'. I think though it may have started off as an evoluitionary process (like the next evolution of pack-like instincts and behaviour) i dont think it is now.

Lets say i was walking along the road and saw a pie ("Hmmmm pie") in the kitchen of someone elses house. Its completey ungaurded. In a purely survivalistic (not sure if thats a word, but hey, it is now) nature, wouldnt i want to steal that pie? (Extra energy, more chance of offspring etc.). So why dont I?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:25 am 
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You should not celebrate Phix's leaving, for as long as he is gone, none of you will come to Truth.

Humans have passion and reason, which the religious call evil and good. This labeling of evil and good by religion trickles down as morals to you and I. But these morals are simply put: a lie.

When Phix said that you can only come to right from wrong from reality, he was correct. Only be Experience, not by being told. The basis we build our moral interpretation on is largely unchanging. "Society is the Lie we define with our silence."

Reality teaches Rationality and Irrationality, not Good from Evil. Whoever is not allowed to follow conscience can be called Dead. And in acts of purity Good and Evil is washed downstream.

I shall finish with Blake, simply: "Active Evil is better than Passive Good."


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:30 pm 
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Morals are reverse evolution

like Nemesis said, if we saw a pie on a window sill, we wouldent take it, because it's wrong, though in a 'survivlalistic' maner, which is how everything else has evolved, the pie would be gone in a second. however, if people were to start taking pies, the pie-maker would stop leaving the pies on the windowsill. that is evolution in prosses.

Another example of how morals are going against evolution is how we treat the sick and elderly. because of morals, we want to help those in need, so we build hospitals, spend billions on drugs, and try to save them, or at least help them. in an evolutionary sense, the weak and the old die off, making the gene pool stronger, but with humans, they survive, inherently making the gene pool weaker (for instance, 30-40 years ago, when my parents were kids, no one was allergic to penuts, or bees, etc.)

im not saying it morals are bad, but they do go against evolution, which has worked for millions, or billions of years.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:53 pm 
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Quote:
You should not celebrate Phix's leaving, for as long as he is gone, none of you will come to Truth.


Please find somewhere in my writing where i have rejoiced in Phix's leaving. Personally i think it is a pitty that he left, since the people who are left seem to have very similar veiws and oppinions. Thinking and construction of ideas is improved tenfold if we have someone to critically analyse it. Im not saying this isnt being done, but you could always count on Phix to go against the main thought flow.


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This labeling of evil and good by religion trickles down as morals to you and I


I dont quite see how it is that religion has formed my morals. I can see it as a society (eg. How not many shops open on Sundays) but not individually. If i had never heard of any of the religions, does this mean that i have no formed morals?

Quote:
Only be Experience, not by being told


I agree that many of our morals come from our processing of reality, but to say ONLY of experience is a bit misleading. I've never murdered, raped, bashed or tortured anyone in my life, so does this go to say that i do not know whether they are right or wrong? I think that morals also evolve from the thoughts that "I would not like to be done to me what is happening to another person" (There is a word for this kind of thought processing, but i cant remember what it is.)

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The basis we build our moral interpretation on is largely unchanging.


So your saying that the basis we build our morals on is reality, and as this is not changing to a significant degree, nor will our morals?

But as i said earlier, i dont believe that morals are constructed entirely on the theories of reality. The majority would be, but what of those i mentioned previously. I have no reality to guide myself of these issues, so how do i deciede whether commiting them is moral or immoral? This is where i think society 'feeds' us its common morals.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:35 pm 
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Maybe I was misunderstood. I did not say that morals were based off of reality at all. Any personal morals you have were made for and of yourself through thought and heart, which I labeled Experience.

Experience is: "apprehension of an object, thought, or emotion through the senses or mind"

Do you think society gave you the heart to assert what you have (i.e. about killing, etc)? I do not think so. You were also right when you asserted morals outside the confines of religion.

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I've never murdered, raped, bashed or tortured anyone in my life, so does this go to say that i do not know whether they are right or wrong? I think that morals also evolve from the thoughts that "I would not like to be done to me what is happening to another person"


EMPATHY

Empathy and it's power are moral-free. (again I use morals to say something "from on high"... something told to you but not FELT)

Also, when you posed the question that if reality is unchanging, or largely so, then our morals will remain so. Im saying No to that. I'm saying morals are away from Reality, as is shown with repressive ideas of chastity (of which Jesus wasn't).

This was hastily typed. Please comment where I am cloudy or you believe me wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:01 am 
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"location: The Matrix"
lol


Im a little tired tonite but i wanna try and reply, so if its a little hard to comprehend, ill pick the bits up in the morning.

Quote:
(again I use morals to say something "from on high"... something told to you but not FELT)


SO something that I think is correct (from what other people have told me) but have yet to experience?

Quote:
I'm saying morals are away from Reality, as is shown with repressive ideas of chastity


So this is where religion has come in to form morals. Religion, im thinking more along the lines of christianity as an example here, has 'taught' me that sex before marriage is wrong, but from my personal experience, i have come to disagree with this theory. So what was the christian moral of chastity based on? How people thought reality should be? Other peoples attempt at 'perfect' reality?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:28 am 
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I know only that what is moral is what you feel good after and what is immoral is what you feel bad after~Ernest Hemingway, Death in the Afternoon (1932). :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:54 am 
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Quote:
SO something that I think is correct (from what other people have told me) but have yet to experience?


Technically, according to definition, that feeling is the experience. It is certainly more than being told something false.

And yes, Nemesis, your last part I would totally agree with.

I agree with the Hemingway quote. Conscience is my only teacher.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:03 am 
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The Sceptic
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We have a new Phix PoeticGenius has taken over the role. :lol:
At first I was glad he had gone but I got bored and pretty much stopped posting.

Anyway, I now geniuinly belive morals can evolve simply becuase we fear the consequnces when we are found out. WE don't steal therefore becuase we have evolved in a way that makes us have strong dislike for genetic cheats so we know if we find out we are going to suffer so we don't steal. Lesser animals that are not able to think ahead in this way (or have no need to) are more stronlgy effected by gentic pressures becuse there is nothing to counter balance it.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:43 pm 
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The one thing I wished Phix to explain is that: if everything was determined by cause+effect, how is imagination and creation in humans explained. Would he then say that Imagination was the Holy Ghost? This tickles my fancy indeed. :P 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:06 am 
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lol. Yeah, he had some pretty wack ideas. It took me about 150 posts to finally figure out what exactly he was on about. GOt there but.

Quote:
but I got bored and pretty much stopped posting.


Same.

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This tickles my fancy indeed


Doesnt tickle my fancy, just tweaks my interest :P


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