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 Post subject: Convince me
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 5:51 pm 
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An imperfect world, extinction of impractical species and flawed, cruel, greedy humanity is completely in accord with the theory of natural evolution and survival of the fittest.

So, here are a couple of related questions and I would really appreciate it if your answers could be from your own thoughts, without biblical quotation or conventional dogma.

Why would any “creator” make something he was pleased with and then put in a temptation trap which, in his all knowingness could only lead to disaster, if that creator had any of our human attributes of love and caring?

Why deliberately create evil?

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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 5:53 pm 
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Now, gumtree, why would you give this thread such a title? ;)


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 6:09 pm 
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Because I knew it would draw your attention :evil:

At that point my computer completely crashed so I am coming back in to this post -with trepidation.

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Last edited by gumtree on Sun May 15, 2011 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 6:17 pm 
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Any thread draws my attention.

Blindness is the absence of sight. Darkness is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good. Not only absence, but privation.


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 6:48 pm 
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Seriously, Tommy, I think those are the questions that explain the rock bottom basis for my disbelief.

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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 6:59 pm 
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That's perfectly acceptable, gumtree.

I am happy to concede that polytheism is true, or that God is evil, or that he is stupid, or that he is weak. But I cannot concede that he simply Is Not. I might be worshiping Allah, Jehovah, or the tree in my yard. But what continues to draw me back is that there cannot be a Big Bang without a Big Banger.

Besides - if God doesn't exist, then problem of evil/pain is solved, isn't it?


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:34 pm 
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Maybe just because that he is the creator, and the creator of all things? i don't like the connotation that he created evil but if he did indeed create it, then it's no surprise that people do evil.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:05 am 
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Tommy and Arrow, thank you both for such honest replies, both of which made more sense to me than other explanations have ever done.

I was genuinely asking for particular reasons and appreciate your thoughts.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 3:45 am 
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You're welcome gumtree. Tom's Big Banger is more fun and makes sense and probably could explain why earth quakes, why twister roams, why tsunamis hit , why storms develop, why killer bees sting indiscriminately, why great whites like whites, why pestilence happens, why couples divorce and why people generally go crazy.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 5:36 am 
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Perhaps. But, then, I deserve an explanation as to why there is so much good.


Ah, but, gumtree, what are YOUR thoughts? You have given no commentary, but a "thank you."


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 3:05 pm 
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Tommy GS wrote:
But what continues to draw me back is that there cannot be a Big Bang without a Big Banger.


Ah, yes. The first-cause discussion.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Tommy GS wrote:
Perhaps. But, then, I deserve an explanation as to why there is so much good.


Ah, but, gumtree, what are YOUR thoughts? You have given no commentary, but a "thank you."


The explanation for good fits in with the evolution theories as it is yet another means to help survival of the species.

You and Arrow both conceded far more in your thoughts than I could have expected, and I know that was not easy for you.

My original posting would have been an angry burst of venom against man as a species because I was raging, frustrated and despairing over yet another instance of extreme cruelty to children. Animal species do not have traits of deliberate cruelty or revenge type hatred and enhanced “intelligence” has come with a terrible price. A day or so later this this led to my toned down questions.

I can concede a “Big Banger” but could not even begin to imagine what it was or is. What I cannot believe is that it is what we call a God or that it is any more aware of our thoughts and feelings than we are of the thoughts and feelings of an ant or an amoeba or an atom somewhere else in the galaxy. Nor can I ascribe to it any thoughts or feelings of its own, as we understand them.

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Ah, yes. The first-cause discussion.


Yes Anajo, comes back to first cause, but I really didn’t want to stir or start that insoluble argument as such, I truly wanted to see what other sensible people thought, but putting religion aside.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 7:02 pm 
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If you think it is difficult for me to make such statements, then you don't know my position. This is a big part of the issue. I hear a lot of statements like, "Religion is synonymous with not asking questions." Or, "Christians believe that only Christians get into heaven." And so on. The people who make these claims don't know what it is they are arguing against. Oh, how I wish people would ask me such burning questions! I have yet to be offended!!

It easier to believe that a transcendent being exists, than to believe that he exists and he loves us. It is up to the individual to find out what God's traits are.

It comes back to the first cause, indeed. What is the issue? I am perfectly sensible, I think, and my arguments are utterly rational. I am not so dishonest as to be in denial - that is intellectually dishonest. And in discussing the existence of a Supreme Being, religion is not mentioned once.


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 7:39 pm 
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Tommy, forgive my assumptions, but the fact that you have intimated your possible intention to become a Catholic priest infers that you believe your church's teachings.

Am I wrong in thinking that does not include

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polytheism is true, or that God is evil, or that he is stupid, or that he is weak.
?

Hence my surprise at your reply. I know you do not get offended by honest discussion ( even if understanding my sense of humour sometimes goes askew!!)

Burning questions will be surely asked when new ones occur. :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:00 pm 
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I see.

To directly answer your question:

The Church teaches exactly the opposite - God is one, He is love, He is omniscient, and He is omnipotent. And I believe in all four of these notions.

But - this is a discussion. ;) I would be a fool to believe that I am going to convince anyone to adhere to a certain religious persuasion who doesn't even believe in God in the first place. Hell, I would be a fool to believe that I am going to convince an atheist that God exists, period!

You're intelligent, and so am I. You do not believe in a transcendent being, and I do. Your arguments force me to ask hard questions, and nothing pleases me more to than seek for the answers, if there are any. What could be more engaging? I've lost sleep, and slacked off at work because of this forum!

All I ask of myself is to have an open mind and heart, and I would expect nothing less of you. All of us have everything to lose and everything to gain. Thereby, giving intellectual dialog purpose. Especially one as this.


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