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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:58 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:05 am 
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Unnil,

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Examples that prove that capitalism is uneven? My parents have studied and worked a lot, someone more infuant came by and destroyed their dreams, by messing things up just to get more money himself. I'm not willing to further detail.


With all due respect to you, that's not the kind of example I was looking for. That's just a personal experience.

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Contrary to you, I can't aswer to such a general question, I only know what my main goal is.


Fair enough. But humour me anyway. What is your 'main goal?'

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A prison is not made to give people as much as possible, communism is.


Sure, you can have everything proletarian, but at the expense of any liberties. You never really own anything anyway.

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We will always be "imprisoned" inside our human bodies, on this material earth.


I'm also interested what you infleunce is here. Religion? Existentialism? In any case it's not anything to do with state.

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Communism can be as equal as you want it to be.


No, it can't and won't be. Communism will also be as equal as someone has chosen it to be. There is no telepathic proletarian rule.

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Times of war.. sorry that I'm not english


I didn't mean to criticise your english. I meant, when in the world's history do you mean? What war?

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Our good friend Stalin did all he could to keep communism alive (he even did too much), but that war-communism wasn't supposed to last; it did, and whose fault was it? Capitalism


Are you kidding me? At any rate it was Lenin and not Stalin that put an end to war communism (a hopeless failure) to go onto the NEP. It was Trotsky and not Stalin who was heir to communism and he was duly found sometime later with an icepick in his head. Stalin massacred millions of peasants and reintroduced collectivisation, but when did Stalin ever make any concession towards 'true communism' as it's called. Namely, the abolition of the state for self-governance? Hah. Can you honestly believe Stalin had any intentions to foresake his power? And you want to call him a capitalist?

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It could work if properly used.


Ok, you tell me how, and I'll point out why it won't. You can use any ideal situation as you see fit, i.e. no nasty capitalists.

The question still remains if I'm to ignore your irony for now. Why doesn't capitalism work properly?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:11 am 
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What's properly, and does anything EVER work the way it should?

i know my toaster doesn't!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:17 am 
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Yes. Any law of science.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:21 am 
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but many of those can be broken, so they are not infalible.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:27 am 
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Such as?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:54 am 
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Fish,
I'm not going to argue further with you :) stop the questioning in your following reply, this is my last post in this topic

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With all due respect to you, that's not the kind of example I was looking for. That's just a personal experience.

There are milliards of people who suffer the same fate. But if that personal experience is not good enough to you, here you are: Coca Cola ripping the lifes out of those south-americans, Adidas exploiting asian children, the war in Irak, ..
BEfore: USA terrorising and expoiting Cuba, USING WW1 and WW2 to make profit, and I have more if you want.
Capitalism is not about morality, it's not about philosophy, it's all about money, and my ears don't like hearing what I just said.

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What is your 'main goal?'

None but to understand

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but at the expense of any liberties

I know we discussed this before. Communism is not material liberty, it is material equalty and satisfaction

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I'm also interested what you infleunce is here. Religion? Existentialism? In any case it's not anything to do with state.

You said capitalism was about freedom more than communism, I wanted to show that freedom will never be complete, that the only complete freedom will be our freedom of thought, and that there is no need to seek it in a system that pushes humans to their unavoidable limits just because "the more you work, the better you live"

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No, it can't and won't be. Communism will also be as equal as someone has chosen it to be. There is no telepathic proletarian rule.

I referred to a system having nothing to do with proletariat. A new form communism.

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I meant, when in the world's history do you mean? What war?

WW1 and even WW2, a well built communism can't survive a war, it has to be corrupt to persist. This means we never saw "true" communism

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Are you kidding me? At any rate it was Lenin and not Stalin that put an end to war communism (a hopeless failure) to go onto the NEP. It was Trotsky and not Stalin who was heir to communism and he was duly found sometime later with an icepick in his head. Stalin massacred millions of peasants and reintroduced collectivisation, but when did Stalin ever make any concession towards 'true communism' as it's called. Namely, the abolition of the state for self-governance? Hah. Can you honestly believe Stalin had any intentions to foresake his power? And you want to call him a capitalist?

I know Russia VERY well and I can tell you one thing: Staline may have killed and destroyed, but Staline saved Russia The way he did it was hard, but it was the only way (I'm an anarchist so all those kills for the sake of state make me sick don't get me wrong. but capitalism would have done anything to keep a state alive too). Russia under Lenin wasn't under so much pression as it was under Staline, internationnally spoken of course.

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Ok, you tell me how, and I'll point out why it won't. You can use any ideal situation as you see fit, i.e. no nasty capitalists

Send a 300 communism-convinced people to a strange and wealthy planet, promise them to never ever come back there and leave them alone, it will work. Do the same with 300 true anarchists, it will also work.
The existance of capitalism or pro-capitalism people makes communism and anarchy impossible nowadays, because these two aren't made to compete but to live happily.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:42 pm 
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Unnil,

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I'm not going to argue further with you


That's fine.

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Coca Cola ripping the lifes out of those south-americans, Adidas exploiting asian children, the war in Irak, ..
BEfore: USA terrorising and expoiting Cuba, USING WW1 and WW2 to make profit, and I have more if you want.
Capitalism is not about morality, it's not about philosophy, it's all about money, and my ears don't like hearing what I just said.


Sure, but that's just a list. That's not any proof. Got any figures? Articles? Haven't heard the profiteering from the World Wars before, you're welcome to go for that.

Capitalism must be about philosophy, since politics is a branch of philosophy- namely by what means shall a state exist to further the ethics of my philosophy. Adam Smith's magnum opus would be a good start.

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Communism is not material liberty, it is material equalty and satisfaction


How can you have your equality if you don't have your liberty?

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You said capitalism was about freedom more than communism, I wanted to show that freedom will never be complete, that the only complete freedom will be our freedom of thought, and that there is no need to seek it in a system that pushes humans to their unavoidable limits just because "the more you work, the better you live"


Shrugs. I think this is particularly invalid in this discussion. I mean I could say, there's no freedom to murder and that would mean that freedom isn't complete, and I think both systems would punish that idea. What is our unavoidable limit? That people work? Are you saying we should opt for communism because it's lazier?

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I referred to a system having nothing to do with proletariat. A new form communism.


But my good friend, have you never read the Communist Manifesto. The dictatorship of the proletariat is communism's final state end. What new communism do you speak of?

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WW1 and even WW2, a well built communism can't survive a war, it has to be corrupt to persist.


Corrupt to exist.*

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I know Russia VERY well and I can tell you one thing: Staline may have killed and destroyed, but Staline saved Russia The way he did it was hard, but it was the only way (I'm an anarchist so all those kills for the sake of state make me sick don't get me wrong. but capitalism would have done anything to keep a state alive too). Russia under Lenin wasn't under so much pression as it was under Staline, internationnally spoken of course.


I know Russia very well, I spent two years studying it. Capitalism does not advocate collectivism so the peasants wouldn't have been massacred, the NEP would have continued and probably flourished. Internationally speaking? Hmm, I think you're wrong my friend remember that after the October revolution there was that small civil war affair, where the white army troops were boosted by support from Britain and America amongst other nations. In any case, this has nothing to do with communism being corrupt, as I have been endeavouring to show.

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Send a 300 communism-convinced people to a strange and wealthy planet, promise them to never ever come back there and leave them alone, it will work. Do the same with 300 true anarchists, it will also work.
The existance of capitalism or pro-capitalism people makes communism and anarchy impossible nowadays, because these two aren't made to compete but to live happily.


Ok, now the problems. I said, ideal, but I meant believeable. So scrap the planet. Say one anarchist, covets his neighbour anarchist's wife, to which the second anarchist kills the first. If he is to be adjudged by his peers, then a system of law will evolve. To ensure that there is only laws passed by the commune, it would be helpful for someone to write the laws down, effectively legislating. Things are getting a bit sticky already, no?

What's 'pro-capitalism' I assume you don't mean 'proto-capitalism' because that would be silly. Are governments supposed to compete or make the lives of their citizens happy. Do you think many people will choose communism if as I'm inferring, the people aren't going to be happy?

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