Quotations and Literature Forum

It is currently Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:16 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: State
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:42 am 
Offline
DedeKorkut
DedeKorkut

Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:36 am
Posts: 831
Location: Turan
Hello again. I just want to learn your opinion about state. What do u prefer, a state of liberty, or an autocrat state?Do you agree Lenin:"While the State exists, there can be no freedom. When there is freedom there will be no State."?

_________________
"God is a comedian, playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
Voltaire


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:21 am 
Offline
QuoteMaster
QuoteMaster

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:28 pm
Posts: 806
Location: Indiana, USA
Liberty, baby. Liberty.

_________________
In the world of knowledge the idea of Good appears last of all and is seen only with an effort. When seen it is to be the Universal Author of things Beautiful and Right, parent and Lord of Light, and the source of Reason and Truth in the Intellectual.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:39 am 
Offline
QuoteMaster
QuoteMaster

Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:23 pm
Posts: 661
Location: England
No, Lenin is advocating pure communism. I prefer a laissez-faire democracy; there is no political system which is more free.

_________________
"The proper study of mankind is man."
Alexander Pope


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:44 am 
Offline
QuoteMaster
QuoteMaster

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 4:51 pm
Posts: 3071
Location: University of New Hampshire
Unfortunately s State with true liberty seems to be an illusion these days. it is harder and harder to find actual freedom, even here in the 'land of the free'. as long as humanity gathers in large numbers, some people will always come away unsatisified with the ruling powers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:25 am 
Offline
Philosopher
Philosopher

Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:04 am
Posts: 958
Location: Belgium
Lenin just states that there can not be freedom without state and that while the state exists, we shouldn't expect freedom. Democraty is a flop, capitalism is the most uneven system we can get. Lenin was a communist because he knew he would help nobody by being an anarchist. First equalty then liberty. Let people learn to live equally. And I think that was a good idea. USA has always been there to ruin good ideas, if they hadn't been, the whole world would be a communism, but they were too stubborn to realise capitalism just can't work correctly and this is because people don't know equalty yet.. so they did everything to counter it.

_________________
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:37 am 
Offline
QuoteMaster
QuoteMaster

Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 8:00 am
Posts: 279
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
But thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. --
Friedrich Nietzsche

I cannot teach you violence, as I do not myself believe in it. I can only teach you not to bow your heads before any one even at the cost of your life.
You must be the change you want to see in the world.
Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right. --
Mahatma Gandhi, 1931

If you want to be free, there is but one way; it is to guarantee an equally full measure of liberty to all your neighbors. There is no other.
Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906)

You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:16 am 
Offline
QuoteMaster
QuoteMaster

Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:23 pm
Posts: 661
Location: England
Quote:
Lenin just states that there can not be freedom without state and that while the state exists, we shouldn't expect freedom. Democraty is a flop, capitalism is the most uneven system we can get. Lenin was a communist because he knew he would help nobody by being an anarchist. First equalty then liberty. Let people learn to live equally. And I think that was a good idea. USA has always been there to ruin good ideas, if they hadn't been, the whole world would be a communism, but they were too stubborn to realise capitalism just can't work correctly and this is because people don't know equalty yet.. so they did everything to counter it.


Hmm.

1. Capitalism is 'uneven' because some people are successful in life, through their own efforts. A meritocracy under laissez-faire capitalism is the only system that accords equality of opportunity to all.

2. Liberty cannot exist under an 'equal' communist state. The very nature of collectivism demands that the proceeds of man's work, by which he earns his means of survival, be deprived of him and becomes property of the state.

3. Why doesn't capitalism 'work properly'?

I for one am thankful that America (and the rest of the West! aside from Germany) opposed communism.

_________________
"The proper study of mankind is man."
Alexander Pope


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:36 am 
Offline
QuoteMaster
QuoteMaster

Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 8:00 am
Posts: 279
' (and the rest of the West! aside from Germany) opposed communism. '
what are t facts of that claim ?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:04 am 
Offline
QuoteMaster
QuoteMaster

Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:23 pm
Posts: 661
Location: England
Them not being communist and condoning the communist regime, particularly in the Soviet Union?

_________________
"The proper study of mankind is man."
Alexander Pope


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:50 am 
Offline
QuoteMaster
QuoteMaster

Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 8:00 am
Posts: 279
i dare say that all t people of german descent who suffered due to t Soviet Union would have factual evidence to disprove your claim -
' condoning the communist regimeparticularly in the Soviet Union'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:00 am 
Offline
QuoteMaster
QuoteMaster

Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:23 pm
Posts: 661
Location: England
Sorry I meant 'condemning.'

_________________
"The proper study of mankind is man."
Alexander Pope


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:50 pm 
Offline
QuoteMaster
QuoteMaster

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 4:51 pm
Posts: 3071
Location: University of New Hampshire
patsm--He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
But thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Friedrich Nietzsche


When you fight the monster, are you not, therefore, a monster to the monster?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:25 am 
Offline
Philosopher
Philosopher

Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:04 am
Posts: 958
Location: Belgium
Fish..
1. CApitalism is uneven in the way that some work alot and attain nothing, some do nothing and attain a lot.. plus we don't have the same opinion about successfulness in life anyway so we could never agree here. I think work and effort are not the main goal in a man's life..
2. I know that under communism there can not be liberty, but I put priority on equalty in what a man needs: the only true freedom we can have is freedom of thought, we will always be depending on something; if this something is given to us we will be equally happy than if the need of it was suppressed. And while communism can give us all we need and equally, freedom will never be complete. Now to come back to the point: communism will give more people what they really need than capitalism will. Communism appeared in war times, not Russia, nor anyone else, could complete it, just because there was 1 always a destructive capitalist opposition and 2 wars all around the world; we can't judge the efficiency of communism.
3. I think all the above explained that and if that is not enough:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Poverty.asp

The only system that can deliver freedom and equalty is anarchy, but, and it pains me to say this, we are not ready for such an utopy: too many people are simply too stupid..

_________________
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:15 am 
Offline
QuoteMaster
QuoteMaster

Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:23 pm
Posts: 661
Location: England
unnil,

Quote:
1. CApitalism is uneven in the way that some work alot and attain nothing, some do nothing and attain a lot.. plus we don't have the same opinion about successfulness in life anyway so we could never agree here. I think work and effort are not the main goal in a man's life..


- Examples?
- I'm not trying to agree with you.
- What is man's main goal?

Quote:
I know that under communism there can not be liberty, but I put priority on equalty in what a man needs: the only true freedom we can have is freedom of thought, we will always be depending on something; if this something is given to us we will be equally happy than if the need of it was suppressed. And while communism can give us all we need and equally, freedom will never be complete. Now to come back to the point: communism will give more people what they really need than capitalism will. Communism appeared in war times, not Russia, nor anyone else, could complete it, just because there was 1 always a destructive capitalist opposition and 2 wars all around the world; we can't judge the efficiency of communism.


- If you want to place equality above liberty. Imagine a prison world, where you all get given the same food, the same water, the same piece of paper to doodle on etc. but you stay in your cell.
- What does 'freedom will never be complete' mean?
- How can communism give us equality when there are proletarian workers and proletarian leaders with different wages, influence/power, and priveleges.
- What 'war times'?
- I think you'll find the destructive capitalist opposition was communism itself, like our good friend Josef Stalin for example.
- No, you are right about one thing, we can't judge the efficiency of something which theoretically 'works' but cannot work in practice- thereby constituting a contradiction.

Quote:
3. I think all the above explained that and if that is not enough:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Poverty.asp

The only system that can deliver freedom and equalty is anarchy, but, and it pains me to say this, we are not ready for such an utopy: too many people are simply too stupid..


Sorry kiddo, but I'm not going to be patronized by links to Wikipedia for 'poverty,' not least because I think that the source of the world's poverty is corrupt plutocrats, so you're going to have to do better than that.

Anarchy will never work, get over it.

_________________
"The proper study of mankind is man."
Alexander Pope


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:49 am 
Offline
Philosopher
Philosopher

Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:04 am
Posts: 958
Location: Belgium
Fish,

Quote:
Examples?

Examples that prove that capitalism is uneven? My parents have studied and worked a lot, someone more infuant came by and destroyed their dreams, by messing things up just to get more money himself. I'm not willing to further detail.

Quote:
I'm not trying to agree with you.

And I'm not trying to convince you..

Quote:
What is man's main goal?

Contrary to you, I can't aswer to such a general question, I only know what my main goal is.

Quote:
If you want to place equality above liberty. Imagine a prison world, where you all get given the same food, the same water, the same piece of paper to doodle on etc. but you stay in your cell.

A prison is not made to give people as much as possible, communism is.

Quote:
What does 'freedom will never be complete' mean?

We will always be "imprisoned" inside our human bodies, on this material earth.

Quote:
How can communism give us equality when there are proletarian workers and proletarian leaders with different wages, influence/power, and priveleges.

Communism can be as equal as you want it to be.

Quote:
What 'war times'?

Times of war.. sorry that I'm not english

Quote:
I think you'll find the destructive capitalist opposition was communism itself, like our good friend Josef Stalin for example.

Our good friend Stalin did all he could to keep communism alive (he even did too much), but that war-communism wasn't supposed to last; it did, and whose fault was it? Capitalism

Quote:
No, you are right about one thing, we can't judge the efficiency of something which theoretically 'works' but cannot work in practice- thereby constituting a contradiction.

It could work if properly used.

Quote:
Sorry kiddo, but I'm not going to be patronized by links to Wikipedia for 'poverty,' not least because I think that the source of the world's poverty is corrupt plutocrats, so you're going to have to do better than that.

That link was ironically meant.
Poverty appears where finances appear. No more money, no more poverty
And again, I'm not trying to convince you, this is only what I believe

Quote:
Anarchy will never work, get over it.

You probably know, and I'll probably never know

_________________
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group