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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:11 pm 
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tom5030 wrote:
Quote:
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.


You see no value. You don't what good things are happening. You need to raise your chin, look around to everything beautiful in this world, and smile that things are being done.

oh dear, i hate that quote.
you've got me mistaken.
i like beauty,but only if its real,
like a candle in the wind
or the shape of the wheel.
i do not,however assioate anything human with beauty.
humans are filthy digusting creatures of habit.
me thinking this, when i have to leave my house my chin stays down,
i do not want to look around.
and for you to care about this "love" seems rather silly.
all love is,is sex with extra baggage
and thats the truth.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:15 pm 
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Nahwatah Ravenheart wrote:
Tushka,
I loved your poem. It was wonderful. At the beginning I thought I was going to stop reading...but then you would throw in another catch.

As for you Mr. Logic
Here's a riddle
For your knowledge
When writing a poem
No rules are known
It is a self expression
A voice without bars
conceling is not a question
And limits only give harm
To dampening its perfection
There is my whole hearted lesson

As for love
That which you do not believe of
Tis it but an illusion?
As everything else you say
Can not one thing be real?
Something so priceless
To give with no need
Need to recieve
Is there a flaw
A secret to your words
Concealed behind
A past of unpleasantries
giving birth to something
You feel cannot be faced

Sincerely,
The Mistress of Riddles

anything without structure is not worth reading.
i dont care what its about,
because first its poetry then society,
where we wander all about.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:25 pm 
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The world is nothing because of structure.

Raven

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:28 pm 
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Nahwatah Ravenheart wrote:
The world is nothing because of structure.

Raven

structure is everything.
we just dont have enough

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:36 pm 
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and now professor, I must point out that you are mistaken.
On two counts.
First, you are incorrect to say that structure is everything. Balance is everything. Structure is merely one small part of many collectives states of being to create balance.

Second, you are wrong in your opinion of love's importance.
Love is another state to create balance, and therefore of the utmost importance. Arguably more important than structure because of it's various powerful effect on human beings.

Love is as important as hate, as important as structure which is as important as chaos. To say any emotion, any state of being, any frame of mind or action is futile or "silly" is ignorant to truth. Even your rather melancoly (spl?) state of mind is necessary to the balance of the universe.

I would also like to say, with all due respect, that you are, in my opinion, a coward. Please understand I would not say that if I didn't hold your intellect in high enough regard to know that we can continue on with decency towards each other. But I did say it because a refusal to look around at the world and an apparant refusal to experience a full spectrum of emotions seems to be cowardly.

Yin

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:23 am 
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YinYangSearcher wrote:
and now professor, I must point out that you are mistaken.
On two counts.
First, you are incorrect to say that structure is everything. Balance is everything. Structure is merely one small part of many collectives states of being to create balance.

Second, you are wrong in your opinion of love's importance.
Love is another state to create balance, and therefore of the utmost importance. Arguably more important than structure because of it's various powerful effect on human beings.

Love is as important as hate, as important as structure which is as important as chaos. To say any emotion, any state of being, any frame of mind or action is futile or "silly" is ignorant to truth. Even your rather melancoly (spl?) state of mind is necessary to the balance of the universe.

I would also like to say, with all due respect, that you are, in my opinion, a coward. Please understand I would not say that if I didn't hold your intellect in high enough regard to know that we can continue on with decency towards each other. But I did say it because a refusal to look around at the world and an apparant refusal to experience a full spectrum of emotions seems to be cowardly.

Yin

where is this coming from?
i need a source that proves you are correct
an offense is an offense even in respect.
i stated my opinion on structure,which is mine alone,
to me,structure is balance,
they go hand in hand.
how can you tell me i refuse an emotion?
this information,i demand
indeed it's a silly notion.
i've expierenced it and i cant say i care for it.
a coward,would run from love,
that was not my intent.
i have nothing to fear from it,
as i love people myself.
to be so cold hearted would be bad for my health.
but even though i "love" someone,i know im being quite foolish
people are dishonest filthy things
it'll happen to you too.
they tell you lies to build you trust,
kiss you if they must,
run you over with a bus
and then completely screw you.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:26 am 
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Tom5030

A point that the Professor alluded to in your debate regarding love that I think would have helped if it was fully explained/explored is that there is a philosophical argument that there is no such thing as altruism, that everything done is done for the benefit of one's self.

Example:
Person A loves person B and performs a "self sacrificing" act for person B
(this is not a novel, I don't have to provide a storyline)
Most would agree that person A did this because s/he loves person B
This philisophical platform would insist that A's actions were performed because they made A feel good and that was their reward.

This argument applies to interpersonal love as well as brotherly love (the money/food to kids in Africa example)

And before everyone rails at me, I'm not validating nor denegrating this philisophical argument, merely trying to facilitate the discussion.

And Professor, if none of this coincides with what you were trying to convey, then you're on your own here.

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Last edited by Jeff589 on Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:33 am 
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Professor Logic

Leaving aside the discussion of love for the moment, would like to submit an argument based on each the following

Quote:
you've got me mistaken.
i like beauty,but only if its real,
like a candle in the wind
or the shape of the wheel.


Beauty, to cite a trite phrase, is in the eye of the beholder. It is a term used to describe a perception, and therefore can never be real, only relative.

Quote:
structure is everything.
we just dont have enough


Structure has a couple of meanings that I can think of and I am not sure which you intended.

Structure as the way in which animals organize themselves and their surroundings in order to control the world around them. If this is what you meant in saying that we don't have enough, then fascism's for you, good buddy.

Structure as the way in which humans categorize the world around them in order to better be able to understand it. If this is what you meant, then I agree that we don't have enough, but I will say that it is getting better almost every day.

Quote:
i do not,however assioate anything human with beauty.
humans are filthy digusting creatures of habit.


"like a candle in the wind or the shape of the wheel," both of which are inherently associated with humans. Neither exists anywhere in nature unto themselves.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:59 am 
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Professor,
You have me confused about what you have said. First you say that you do not believe in love. That it is overated, and that anyone who feels love is foolish and only doing it for reasons of the self. Then you say that you have loved, and do love people, but know that it is foolish. Even though you know, you must not have realized your own notions then. knowing and understanding are very different from realizing. If you would have realized, then you wouldn't love anyone. Hence, you are a contradiction to yourself. Not saying that is a bad thing. Everyone in life is a contradiction.

Raven

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:02 am 
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Sometimes a young person who lacks wisdom will use cynicism as a way to cover up their ignorance. Cynicism is a sort of self-imposed blindness.
Those who suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder need structure in their lives. They can't help it.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:18 am 
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With that quote, my intention is not to "cover up my ignorance". Who is not ignorant? With the cynicism quote for Prof. Logic, I was just using to it as my point. And my point is the value thing that I discussed.

Yikes, I hope that made sense.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:23 am 
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Tom,
I should have been more clear. I had "the professor" in mind when I said what I did, not you sweetie! :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:42 am 
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Ah, well, I thought it was me because I'm young (I'm an old soul, but young), and I gave that cynicism quote.

.......Was that a grunt? :D

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:47 am 
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Yes, Tom, that one was a grunt! :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:31 pm 
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Quote:
Those who suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder need structure in their lives. They can't help it.


Actually, OCD is a bit too much structure.

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